Rejection

It’s Narcissist Friday!   

The psychological tools designed to diagnose conditions like narcissism may be helpful to professionals, but they have mixed value for the rest of us.  Sometimes it is hard to know whether a person is exhibiting behavior that fits a certain point on the chart; and sometimes the behavior we see fits the general sense of the condition but isn’t listed.  Perhaps this is why the burden of diagnosis should be left to the professionals; and perhaps this is why the professionals only understand certain aspects of the behavior.

So anytime the rest of us say that someone is a narcissist or shows narcissistic behavior or characteristics, we have to understand that our opinion is not a diagnosis.  In other words, if it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we are probably right to treat it like a duck, but we will let the ornithologists decide whether it is truly a duck.  (Okay, enough sarcasm!)

One very common behavior among those with other narcissistic characteristics is the amazing ability to end relationships or even turn them on and off.  I am going to call this simply “rejection,” because that’s what it feels like to those who have been touched by it.  At one moment you are an important person in the narcissist’s life and in the next moment you are nothing.

Narcissistic rejection is not just anger.  Some recent comments discussed “the silent treatment.”  Non-narcissists can certainly use that for effect or even self-protection.  Pushing someone away for your own health or out of anger, or even to manipulate, at least acknowledges the value of the relationship.  It takes effort to push someone away.

But the narcissist is often able to simply stop relating to the other person.  After a long relationship, you are suddenly just one of the people in his life.  After close or even intimate connection, you are treated as though you no longer exist.  At best you are treated just like anyone else.  No indication that the relationship ever happened.

Some readers will know exactly what I mean by this.  Others have experienced something like it.  The narcissist seems to turn the relationship on and off.  Again, it isn’t the silent treatment, at least not in the same way your sister used to do it to you or your mom used to do to your dad.  It’s more like you were useful, then you weren’t useful; then you were again, and then you were not again.

Now, if you are bold enough to confront the narcissist on this, calling him/her to account for this treatment, you may encounter a look that says, “Who are you and what’s wrong with you?”  The narcissist may seem to have almost no memory of your relationship.  I have heard from people who said the narcissist couldn’t seem to remember their names.

This behavior is more common in incidental relationships, of course.  The pastor of the church, the teacher at school, the person you worked with, or even the old boyfriend.  You think the person should remember you like you remember them, but it doesn’t happen.  It feels like the relationship simply didn’t matter.

You won’t see the same thing in a marriage or from a parent.  That makes sense.  But some have seen that distant or blank look, as though you were a disturbance in the narcissist’s world.  Some have also experienced a hateful anger that strips you of value or personhood.  You felt as though the narcissist would like to forget you.

You won’t find this on the list of characteristics that define narcissists, but you may experience it in your relationship with one.  It’s actually a part of the inability to empathize.  The narcissist has difficulty seeing others as real or as persons.  Some appear to be unable to relate to others in any personal way.  At the same time, they are quite able to establish what looks and feels like a relationship to others.  So the relationship begins, feels right and good, then abruptly changes or disappears.

What I am about to say will hurt, but I hope it helps to understand.  Without empathy, the narcissist does not see others as persons with value and hearts.  Other people are, as we have said before, “tools, toys, or obstacles.”  Ending an incidental relationship, one that was useful for a time or project, can mean nothing more to the narcissist than to take a load of formerly enjoyed belongings to the Goodwill.  The relationship was not the same for the narcissist as it was for us.

So you worked alongside a woman at church on a project for which she took credit, then she doesn’t seem to know you.  You sacrificed time and money and energy to get the politician elected and he doesn’t know your name afterward.  You had a nice lunch with the pastor and shared a great conversation and he walks right past you on Sunday as though he didn’t know you.  You see the old boyfriend or girlfriend and your former relationship has been forgotten.

Sadly, it seems that this is just another narcissistic characteristic.  No matter how much it hurts.

101 Comments

Filed under Narcissism

101 responses to “Rejection

  1. Lindsay

    Exactly what I needed to read at precisely the right time I needed to hear it. Thank you.

  2. DLD

    Realizing that my “friend” who abruptly discarded me last year via e-mail after 40+ years was/is a narcissist has helped me to recover (from her rejection), although I have shed many tears and spent an inordinate amount of time second-guessing myself due to her scapegoating and hostility.

  3. I got that from a former pastor one time. I don’t think he remembered my name even though I had been a member of his medium-sized church for years and had served on a committee with him.

    Sadly, my ex-husband has treated our children the same way. He now has a “relationship” with one of them, but as far as I can tell he’s doing it to look good to the new girlfriend. Before he started seeing her, he had spent about 48 hours total with his children over two years time.

  4. Recovering

    Thank you for this post. It seems entirely impossible to believe they can discount the relationship when those of us who are not N’s put so much love and effort into it. Injury in the child development stage seems to set this up right? If an N gets saved later in life, can they undo that pseudo personality of the N and become authentic at all? Just wondering if there are any case studies.

    • SM

      ‘If an N gets saved later in life, can they undo that pseudo personality of the N and become authentic at all?’

      No, they cant. The reason why is that they really arent saved. They think they are, they come to Christ, they read the word everyday, they listen to praise music all day, they talk the talk but…..they will not and do not do the ONE thing they need to do. Put Christ first. They cant do it. They are first, they serve themselves and only themselves over anything. They are their idol. No matter how they may want to be saved or think they are, until they do what needs to be done, they can not be. To them there’s only room for one on the throne and that’s themselves. Scoot over Jesus.

  5. Fellow Survivor

    I have read and studied, and read and studied and after all of this research I have understanding in my mind, but not in my heart. I don’t know if my heart will truly ever be able to comprehend and heal. Maybe its because I loved this person with all my heart and would and did do anything for her. Maybe it was just the illusion of what our lives could have been that makes it so hard. I really don’t know.

    I do know this, her father exhibits all and I mean all of the characteristics with a trail of shattered relationships as far as one can see. The girl I loved begged me not to let her become like this. She even encouraged me to point out destructive behaviors and when I did she gladly accepted the reminder. And then slowly she became more of a full fledged NDP. As long as she was getting her way and getting everything she wanted everything was cool. And because that was my purpose, to try to make her happy by getting her everything she wanted and I really could care less if we did everything her way. But as I have learned, what they want is a bottomless pit. You can never give enough and they can never have enough. So, eventually, when you can’t give them everything they want that is when the raging starts. And because the raging is so frightening you just try harder to give them what they want. But it is never enough. EVER.

    Then, at some point you begin to stand up for yourself and say NO. They really don’t like that word at all. After the first “NO” then life really gets crazy. You go through years and years of boundary setting, trying to reason, trying to get them to see life from your perspective, Just trying to make sense of it all but with no reasonable explanation forthcoming, because it just doesn’t make sense. It can’t make sense because it is NONSENSICAL. Then the REJECTION. There is nothing more that you have to give to feed their needs for more and more stuff. Your unconditional love is just not important to them.

    At this point you become enemy number one and they progress into the Malignant Narcissistic Phase. This is when they are really out to hurt you. And you ask Why? What have I done to deserve this treatment? Its not what you have done to them, because you haven’t done anything. Its about what you could no longer provide them and unconditional love is not what they are after.

    • UnForsaken

      I have yet to get the last phase, but it always stikes me as strange how alike the feeling and actual phases can be is such a wide range of cases. You’ve had it really hard, mine is easy compared to almost anyone’s here , and even the Facts sound worse then they are sometimes. But, the phases are so easily followed, predicted . It makes me feel like I have some real friends just to know you are m aking it and that some day I may too, even if it does get worse. Thanks !

    • Recovering

      Fellow Survivor….I can relate to what you are saying. I like where you said they are a bottomless pit. SO TRUE

    • LD

      My ex just accused me of not loving unconditionally even though I did everything I could to try to keep him happy and after all his abuse I still wanted to stay married and save the marriage. Am I missing something? He said I didn’t adore him enough. Is this just typical N behavior? Also, the day I left I had asked him to promise to stop namecalling and mocking. He raged and said I was playing games to ask him that and that I should just leave if I don’t like it. I told him I didn’t want to go because we just got married, I had just moved in 2 months before, and I was pregnant! He kept just telling me, “If you don’t like it ..go, actually, just go, I’m done, I’m sick of this.” My son even recalls hearing him say, “Go, just go!” So, I went to my Mom’s very shocked and distraught. He called two days later acting like nothing happened and asking if he should leave the light on for me. I said I thought he wanted me to leave? He said, “Oh, you should have KNOWN I didn’t mean that.” (So he admitted he said it.) Then I said, “Well, will you please promise what I asked so it is an emotionally safe environment. I don’t want to live in a house with verbal abuse.” Well, that set him off. He freaked out saying I called him an abuser and I could ruin his life and reputation and now he wants a legal separation and don’t come back and he feels like killing himself. It was crazy how fast it happened. Fast forward to yesterday. He divorced me a few months ago against my wishes. After telling me about his new perfect girlfriend yesterday he added that the problem was me in our relationship and I “still haven’t taken responsibility for leaving” so that is one of the many reasons he can’t get back together with me and restore our family. (Baby girl now 1.5 years old.) Can someone PLEASE EXPLAIN to me HOW I am supposed to have taken responsibility for that? He doesn’t make sense to me. I STILL feel so lost! Please help. Oh, and he said the new gf didn’t want to get married. I said, “Maybe that is why it’s working for you two?” and he looked at me like I was crazy and said, “Oh no, I’m a family man.” Does anyone else see this as contradictory? We are the THIRD family he has left in order to find better ego stroking (he says, “I always just wanted someone who adores me.”) yet he still considers himself a family man?? Does anyone else see this as inconsistent and crazy and please tell me HOW one “takes responsibility for doing something they were asked to do. When I say that he says I’m blaming him and not taking responsibility. I went so far as to lie through my teeth and SAY “I take 100 percent responsibility for leaving. Will you please forgive me and let me come back.” But this wasn’t good enough. He FORBADE me from entering the property since the time I left and changed the locks but to this day says I abandoned him and never came back. When I remind him he wouldn’t allow me back he says he didn’t want his home to be a “revolving door.” PLEASE HELP ME MAKE SENSE OF THIS!! Thank you to anyone who can give me more insight. Like another commenter, I think I get in my head that he is the sick one but my heart cannot get it! In the chance that I am the sick one and missing something, please help me…maybe it could save a family if I just need to change something! THANKS AGAIN! (Sorry for such a long post!)

      • Carolyn

        LD – I feel like you were married to my husband (isn’t it amazing how similar all of our stories are?”. All the things about finding someone else who will adore them, treat them like a treasure, etc., etc., etc. It has now been 8 months since our divorce, and I am just beginning the healing process. My brain tried to make sense of it all – just like you are trying to do. The thing is….you have to let go of trying to have it all make sense…because it never will. We don’t think like they do. We don’t feel like they do. We try and look at things through logical, understanding, compassionate eyes…and they simply cannot. Thinking over and over about the Serenity Prayer helped me. There are just things that we have to accept. You are not the sick one. He is trying to manipulate you and put the blame on you. Stand strong and get a good support system in place to help you keep things straight in your head when it all gets crazy. Limit your contact with him if at all possible. Pray, pray and pray…and know that many of us have walked before you, and many will follow. We are all here to support one another.

      • LD

        Thanks, Carolyn! I so appreciate you taking the time to write to me!!! I need all the support I can get. Just when I think I’ve healed he drops another bomb…and he does it so nonchalantly and I’m left for days and weeks trying to make sense of the inconsistencies that come out of his mouth within the same sentence! It’s mind boggling. 😦

      • Carolyn

        LD…my prayers will be with you tonight. I know how hard this is and at times how crazy you feel just trying to make sense of this. Nothing adds up with an N. Their life is full of inconsistencies. Part of the draw that keeps us hooked is trying to understand why they do the things they do. You are amongst good friends and fellow believers here. Know that you can be strong enough to withstand whatever he dishes out, because your strength is found in Christ. HE is with you always.

      • LD

        Thanks again, Carolyn. Oh how I appreciate the prayers. 🙂 Do you, or anyone else reading this, have any thoughts or experience on once the ex-N goes with a new person, do they ever treat them better or is it safe to say he will eventually verbally attack her the moment she says/does anything that he does not perceive as her “adoring” him anymore? Of course, I often fear she is just “better” than me and will be able to handle him and it will turn out to be my fault that I wasn’t strong enough.

      • Carolyn

        Hi LD…I really don’t think the next woman or the next one after that will have an experience any different than you did. I was wife #3, and over the last few months both of his exes have contacted me to tell me how they knew what I was going through. You’re ex may try and hide it, and we all know how great the beginning of the relationship was…our own Prince Charming. I beat myself up when he kept telling me that his new woman was the perfect one, she treasured him, etc. but then, what kind of man says things like that to his hurting ex wife? A narccisists does. I still hurt over the loss of our marriage, but every day it gets less and less. Use your friends and family as your sounding board. They would let you know if there were things about you that detrimental to relationships. Remember…the N LIES – all the time. I agree with the other posts to read all you can and find your support here with believers who love The Lord. You will get past the feelings like you are to blame. You know deep in your heart that you are not. Don’t let his words have power over you…cling to Jesus!

      • LD

        Carolyn, thank you so much for your response. I’m not sure if I mentioned I was wife #4. I know wife #3 and she still seems to adore him. I’m afraid to pull her aside and ask how it really was for fear that she will tell him. She still bakes him his favorite tarts…but that may be a way to keep him being kind and validating his fake image of the nice ex husband. I find he is trying to make me like that, too…one of the oh-so-happy exes who he is still friends with but who still use him and don’t appreciate him. Thanks again for your support. I just hope this new one ends quickly and with the same results…not just for my validation but because I still hope this man can be saved.

      • Renay

        LD, you will never make sense of it because you have a heart and you feel. I would start reading. Google everything you can about narcissists and crazy making. This will not get rid of the pain or convince your heart of anything, but you will at least be able to start to understand. They will never change or see your point of view. They are self loathing cowards who only know how to take. It almost seems like they hurt people for the sport of it. Start reading and know you deserve better!
        Good luck and God bless

      • LD

        Thanks, Renay…would you believe I have been reading and studying this disorder for 2 years now? I guess I keep hoping that I will fully understand in my heart but that part never happens. I have to accept it won’t because I don’t have a black N heart. One day I feel totally healed but then when he dropped the bomb of the new woman and how she was the “exact opposite of me because she was “happy, easy-going, nice, and hated drama” (exact words people except for him use to describe me, too)…well, the has me in this regressed place again wondering if there is any truth to what he says. I think at the bottom of my obsessing about what he says is that I am so afraid to be like him and not be able to take any criticism that I look at everything he says as though there must be some truth in it somewhere. I just don’t want to be like him and not acknowledge truth if it’s there. Hope that makes sense. I’ll keep reading. It seems like I go through the cycles of grief each time he drops a new bomb on me. I guess the new gf kills off any hope I must have had about him recovering and putting our family back together. 😦 Thanks for the support.

    • Troubled

      Fellow Survivor the only thing that worries me here is that you say you would and did do everything for her. Scratch that and leave it at did. I think you have been through enough my friend. Mine is a different relationship where I have to cope with them at work so I am trying to learn skills to be treated normal again. For you I hate to think that you feel you would do anything for her. I know I would not do anything for my office N. It’s more how to change me to look more appealing but only so I can be treated civil. If I were single I would run from this man. That little word “would” just had me feeling like Oh no, nonononono. You would not do anything. Be strong. Show you and your daughter the way. I say this with love and caring of course only to help you step out of the pit of N.

    • Broken and emptied

      I realized early on in my relationship that my N had very low self esteem. Through the course of our relationship I empowered him, assured him, encouraged him supported his projects, etc. Then he just asked for more empowering, assuring, encouraging, supporting until I would run on an empty emotional tank. I then realized I was like feeding coal to a fire-breathing dragon who would rage at me if he doesn’t get what he wants. Then I end up licking my own wounds while he goes off to find his supply somewhere else. Did his self-esteem grow? No! But it definitely depleted mine.

      • Fellow Survivor

        Broken, just a question, but were you married to my ex N? Empowered, assured, encouraged, supported. That’s what I try to do for everybody. Like I said here before, when I met my ex N she was a NOBODY. Knew no one. Belonged to no social group. Had no job. etc, etc. Quit work for a year to go back and get a Masters in Education while I worked, plus all the debt. Oh, all the projects supported, extra errands run, money spent, all for them out of love. And what do we get as thanks? We are told we are worthless and not good enough. And the worst part is we, or at least I, believed it. And then you are so broken while they are off having the time of their lives.

        My soul separation is almost complete. Not much longer now but I still am tied to her but nothing like 6 months ago.

    • JD

      This is so true! It is like they have a “black hole” in their soul that always needs to be filled. It is all consuming with it’s thirst never to be quenched. If you do not feed it what it craves you will then be rejected or discarded. The frustrating thing is that you will always be set up for failure because no matter how hard you try the bar is always moving and always just out of reach.

    • Low Profile

      Very well said! When you mentioned about they want a “bottomless pit” it really struck a chord in me because I have seen it time and time again such as a former best friend and family members.

  6. Sunflower

    I’m just wondering if part of their meanness is because they think that deep down we think as they do? I get accused of being ‘very angry’ or ‘not caring’ and many other things when I wasn’t thinking that way at all. It’s like his whole attitude is one of ‘do unto others before they do it to you because they plan to’.

    • UnForsaken

      Wouldn’t be suprised, Sunflower. Certainly I’ve had a couple almost run from me who had been destroying the ones I love with slander, and I’m sure they Expected the same treatment . Never did a thing to them, behind them or to thier faces. I also kind of wonder if they would hope to project some of that fear on me, but I could only feel amazement!

    • Fellow Survivor

      Sunflower, I really think you are right. I think they project their own thought processes onto us much the way we assume they are thinking like we are thinking.

      For example, when some disappointing event happens, we react a certain way. Most of the people we know would react the same way we do. This is what is so confusing with the Ns, they don’t react to events the way most people do. I could give a dozen examples where logic and reason just did not come into play in their thinking and reacting. Its all just so very strange.

      On the other hand, they expect us to react to events the way they react, illogically.

  7. Recovering

    Are they happy in this distorted reality they operate out of? If they are a bottomless pit and they are…just wondering how it all ends for them? I wonder what happens at the end of their life? Does anyone show up at the deathbed? Do they sit alone in a corner somewhere when they are old EVER wondering WHY they use up everyone as a supply and there is no one left to drain and they look in the mirror

    • Rox

      Recovering: I, too, spent the last few months after my N friend of 19 years discarded me, wondering if he were really happy after having broken my heart into pulsating confetti. My N experience may be atypical, but what I found out kind of shocked me. When I spoke with a member of his community (he’s a cleric) about what I’d just experienced with my friend, who I thought was extremely popular, I was told that my N was burning bridges right and left, and several of his fellow clerics were really gunning for him. A handful of his colleagues, upon hearing what he’d done to me, told me they think he’s spinning out of control and is headed for an inevitable meltdown. I attended one of his services after he threw me over, and I was the only one in the congregation that said a word. This man, who I thought had everyone fooled, is fading fast, and I believe he knows it. Some say he’s having a crisis of faith. I’m not surprised; how much faith in God can a man have if he’s going around abusing a dear friend who showed him only the same gentleness and compassion he was ordained to share with others? During one of his more honest moments, after he threw me away, he admitted that he’s unhappy and overwhelmed, which is exactly what his colleagues have observed. What may sound odd is, even after all he’s put me through, I feel sorry for him. I’ll survive with my other friends, my rewarding work, my empathy, and my love of God. What will he have?

      • Troubled

        That makes me feel better sorry to say. The I have this feeling the office N is oh so popular. I got left in the dust and it was crushing, probably do to insecurities. It has all helped me to become stronger actually. But in the meantime The N seems to be surrounded by people and oh so popular only I hear through the grapevine that he is being talked about and not in a nice way. The worst part is I feel sorry for the N. Why do they have that crazy power?

      • Rox

        Troubled, It’s your good heart, rather than anything the N is doing, that leads you to empathize. You are a warm, caring person, which probably is why the N sought you out in the first place; they want what they don’t and can’t have. Your reaction is a testament to your generous spirit, not anything to do with those devilish tricks with which our Ns are so preoccupied. Kudos to you.

  8. jww

    I think I will go to university and study a degree in creative writing and write a novel of life the last eight years, that way it doesn’t really matter if I am believed anymore ( PEOPLE THOUGHT I WAS SUFFERING FROM PYSCHOSIS) . The storyline had so many twists and turns it could have been a Hollywood blockbuster. But it would also be away of empting my heart of all the seeds planted by the enemy, and allowing our Lord Jesus to sow his new seeds in my heart until I grow in him and blossom after blossom good fruit appears, and he doesn’t rush his masterpieces . Don’t get me wrong been apart now for last 3 months just had a good cry etc the why’s etc to our Lord Jesus but now feel free again. My x seems to enjoy the fact that he can use my emotions and feelings to control and manipulate, tormenting. I do believe it’s because of his background and is his hurts he attempts to project on to me, they understand what is most important and valued by yourself, at the moment he’s attempting to make me understand that he is now the most doting father and the ideal husband material he is doing so much better for himself , but I should really consider it an honour that he suggested I move in on his street, I suppose it gets him off any guilt trip of the sixty thousand pound profit from my house sale that he took to pay of his debts he owed to some very nasty people, don’t worry not his problem it’s just me who cannot let go of the past anyway blah blah . But I do look back and I see our Lord Jesus and where he shone his light on all the dark places along the way and his light will get brighter and brighter, I now understand Luke 11 v21-22 and I know who I would rather have in my house and be living with, but painful to look in his window living in the enemy’s domain.

  9. John

    Yes, the only thing I find inaccurate about this post is the part where it says they cannot simply forget a marriage partner. Mine certainly did and it happened in the span of a couple weeks. I was also about the fifth person she had done this too. She told me when she suddenly felt this way about someone (ie felt nothing toward them) it never changes back and I was discarded. Of course, she did hoover with a lot of drama trying to take it all back, but even then seemed to have no emotional memory of the relationship. After a few weeks of this and refusal to seek therapy the discard was repeated, once again with no feeling whatsoever.This is a factor that makes recovery so difficult, and nearly impossible for those who have not experienced it, even qualified professionals from truly understanding the disorder.

    • Troubled

      John, I guess you nail it. You really have to experience it. I cannot make sense of how someone spent everyday in my office talking chatting…we were friends, did things outside of work, lunches…etc. Bam one day he walked in a room and I did not exist. The other day I was at an event and he was walking down a hall “my friend” would have stopped and talked like he had done a million times. This guy looked down and away and went and sat at the popular table. Now mind you I’m not weird, strange looking or anything else. Everyone likes me just fine…well except him. I of course cannot help him achieve his career goals other than the fact that I have years more experience…but thats what makes it so mind numbingly strange. It makes no sense. Im invisible. Gone. Even Pastor Daves analysis of Rejection just ends. There is no reason or excuse in this article it just is. We are now invisible. I am no longer a tool or a toy but I could be an obstacle because I (unpurposefully) avoid the in crowd. It is what keeps me awake. How can someone I know, I trusted, I thought was a friend just walk by and then go act like the bell of the ball across the room. It makes me have no faith in my own instincts about people. I opened my soul and for no reason just got cast aside for a different agenda. So I see here that some have been fighting this for 2 years…the rejection. How can this be? I am about a month or so in to my understanding of the word N. That knowledge alone has afforded me more restful nights but the insanity of it all is just mind boggling. Thank You Pastor Dave for trying to address an issue that seems to have no good answer. no explanation. No matter how much it hurts. We must move on. We did not deserve this!!!!

  10. I nominated you for the Versatile Blogger Award! Check out this link to get your badge. Thank you for making a difference in the world! http://letmereach.com/2013/11/16/drum-roll-please-versatile-blogger-award-ceremony/

    Whether or not you accept it, I just want you to know I appreciate your contributions 🙂

    • UnForsaken

      Dear Kim, Just found your blog recently and found real encouragement there. I completely agree that Dave deserves this nomination…..Thanks from all of us!

  11. Recovering

    LD, my heart goes out to you. I am almost 3 years divorced from an N. I could never win. It was my responsibility the marriage failed because I didn’t do enough of : fill in the blank with whatever. I was just never enough. They make us feel crazy and worthless. Communication and relationships with them are not normal and it is not our fault. Anyone who demands to be adored cannot sustain a relationship. I am recovering. After my divorce I began to heal from a hyper state of anxiety and distress which made me lose my hair and gave me outbreaks of rash. That is how much he stressed me out.

    • UnForsaken

      Recovering, I’m still losing hair too!!!! This is the first time I’ve heard anyone here talk about that side effect, but in my case it’s probably also related to adrenal fatigue—–and It’s many side effects. A really Big hug from me to You !!!!!

      • Recovering

        Thank you 🙂

      • M

        After 20 years and four children with my narcissistic ex-husband, I was diagnosed with adrenal fatigue. I think the physical effects of narcissistic abuse are paid little attention. I definitely suffered with depression when his projection and game-playing was at its worst. It took a lot of therapy, reading and understanding for me to gain the insight and strength to stand up for myself, and our children, and to leave. On this weeks subject of rejection, I think it is partly credit to our loving hearts that we suffer these feelings. We find it hard to ever give up on wanting to fix them, help them, but we need to accept that the baton has been taken up by a fresh victim with a fresh tank of fuel. Be grateful that your energy is now for you and have as little contact as possible.

    • LD

      Recovering, my heart goes out to you, as well! I had heard about people who threw up under great stress but never really believed that was possible until my ex called me at my Mom’s after he kicked me out and left me penniless. I was 6 months pregnant living off of the kindness of others and trying to get a job while pregnant. He is a millionaire business owner. He called on the phone was bullying me telling me he would not pay me child support and mocking and taunting me…telling me I planned all along to abandon HIM so that I could get child support and health insurance. I was begging him to be kind and work on the relationship. He showed no mercy. He put all my belongings in storage on my birthday. I hung up the phone and started shaking and vomiting. I had major, major panic attacks and was diagnosed with severe Complex PTSD. He threw that in my face like something was wrong with me and that I’m just not a happy person and that my feelings were not his responsibility and that I was in this position because of choices “I” made. Again,the only choice I made was to one day ask him nicely to stop namecalling and mocking me. He went into a rage and kicked me out. Two years later I still wake up hoping it was all a nightmare as it just doesn’t make sense. After the baby was born I was able to get on anxiety/depression meds which helped. I will say that there is one method I found extremely helpful in dealing with the traumatic memories. I highly recommend this to everyone. I just used it after finding out about the new gf he has and it definitely takes some of the sting out of the memory. They are free audio tracks you listen to and follow along. You can download them free at http://www.pstec.org. I spoke to the creator, Tim, and he is such a nice man who really wants to see people recover from trauma. I may have posted this on this site before. Anyhow, I just want to share this with you, Recovering, and with others in case it helps as it has helped me. I’m so sorry we have all dealt with Ns…pure evil, it seems. 😦 Blessings to all. Thank you all for the support!

      • Recovering

        Thank you for that link. After the N deserted our marriage I threw up for 8 weeks. During the marriage I went to the Emergency Room about 4-6 times a year with severe panic attacks. One time in the emergency room while I was hooked up to oxygen and heart monitor he tried to grab my br*sts. I was so demoralized I wanted to die that night. I have no idea how I survived that marriage, he was killing me slowly every day.

      • Carolyn

        In reading these posts, it got me to wondering something. I suffered from two panic attacks (hyperventilating, felt like I couldn’t breathe, tingling in my hands and feel) while married to my N (we are now divorced). I never had them before in my life. I don’t think I will ever have them again. Mine both happened after days and days of extreme lack of empathy for how he had made me feel about some very bad things he had done. Has anyone else had this happen to them?

      • Rox

        Recovering, I’m so sorry you had to go through all that with your N, and I know what you mean about being killed slowly every day. When my N put me through a “practice” devalue and discard (who even knew, at the time, that such a think existed), my blood pressure shot through the roof and my nose began gushing blood uncontrollably. The EMT told me, “If you want to say anything important, say it now, because in about 8 minutes, you’re going to stroke out or have a heart attack.” Thankfully, after several more complications, including losing massive amounts of hair, the symptoms subsided. I suppose this “trial run” helped, because when my N truly discarded me a year later, all that happened was minor bleeding, deep depression, insomnia, and a loss of 21 lbs. As my spiritual advisor put it, “You let this man have too much power over you.” Thank God he’s helping me get things back into balance. But, like you, Recovering, my former best friend was killing me bit by bit with every thought.

      • UnForsaken

        LD, thanks for the link! Recovering, Carolyn, Rox…….wow, too much for me to absorb. Although I’ve never had it that badly, (I couldn’t have taken it physically), I have had at least one panic attack had my sister has had a central nervous system event: tingling nerves, etc. They probably came out of pre-existing health issues like low blood pressure, hypoglycemia, hormones that all pointed towards adrenal fatigue , etc. The cause and effect all seems to go in circles! If I don’t gat better, I can’t get a job( hard to do in tis area or if you are me ) , then I can’t pay for treatment, and without treatment, I can’t get up for even half a day to Think about a job . I’m well taken care of, but it does seem like slow torture !I think the only time I got queezy over this was on a humid day during a calm conversation with the N, but as I walked into the houseI realized he was looking through me the whole time .
        All I can say is , Take Care Of You . Never believe what you hear them say about your lazynaess, usefullness , heart, ETC.!!!!I loved Dave’s advice to tell ourselves everyday,” I am loved, I am accepted, …” . God is always there and He loves you!

      • LD

        You are both welcome for the link. Please let me know if you try the clicktracks and if you notice a difference!

        Oh, Recovering, I’m so sorry he did that…utterly classless. They certainly lack empathy and treat people like objects to be used and played with. I suppose he thought it was funny, too. Ugh. I’ve read that many people get Complex PTSD from Narc relationships. Like soldiers in war treading the ground lightly, not knowing if they are about to hit a landmine…so it was with us walking on the proverbial eggshells not knowing which innocent word or actions of ours would set off the “Narc-mine” into one of their shaming rages. The twist is that in war you KNOW you are dealing with the enemy. We were dealing with people who supposedly “loved” us…and in some cases took vows before God to love, honor, and cherish us. Of course we can’t make sense of it as it is so perverted and twisted. Wow. We are lucky we all got out with most of our sanity intact. 🙂 (NO disrespect to our fine veterans intended at all and my apologies if it at all sounds that way. I know that as bad as our relationships were, they cannot be as bad as the horrors of war so I hope it does not sound as though I am saying that.)

        Oh, and I also want to share another thing I learned about panic attacks (and yes, Carolyn, I had many with the N because I could not fathom his lack of empathy)…if you drink a lot of water during the panic attack it helps tremendously to calm you down. While I was pregnant and could not take any meds for the anxiety, a nurse told me about the water trick. The link I posted for the click tracks and good ol’ water helped me get through some very trying times. Hope this helps someone else, too.

        Blessings to all.

      • UnForsaken

        LD, you have great suggestions and I have just one thing to add. If you even suspect you may have some form of fatigue, add Salt to that water. My sister probably went through shock because she drank a lot of water and her body couldn’t absorb it. Electolytes, salt, can help you stay hydrated because they help retain the liquid long enough for your body to use it. Sounds weird, but it is used for anyone who has had major dehydration . Fatigue usually includes low blood pressure so the salt isn’t a problem, but just salt to tast . I find I need half a teas. in a glass of water when I get up, and some through the day. It has really improved my fuzzy brain too! Hope this helps someone !

      • Cecilia K

        LD, I really like your analogy to war and noting how soldiers know they are dealing with an enemy, whereas victims of narcissistic abuse initially think their partner loves and cares about them. But also like you, I stress that I mean no disrespect to our soldiers/veterans either. I have no comprehension of what they go through and am thankful to them for their sacrificial service!

  12. Troubled

    In thinking about your first two paragraphs Pastor Dave, I think that is what plagues me most. More than likely we are not going to get a professional diagnosis. The N has nothing wrong with them, it’s us…they told us so. I think that is one of my biggest issues, it’s just little old me that figured this out. Everyone else in office seems to adore him, Kind of. They say things like oh he’s gracing us with his presence. And i hear rumblings that the popular people think he is uppity. But in the end, it’s me, just me that has been discarded. It is me that he is covertly driving crazy. He knows,I know what he thinks of everyone so he goes out of his way to hang with people I know he does not care for. I get the feeling he is trying to make me jealous. So yes it could be me being unfriended. That is why this hurt so bad. The why. I have had a lot of friends, I have plenty that are not friends but to be a friend and then just quit one day for no reason puts this in the abdormal, to be invisible, and then I pair it with a lot of other things and the diagnosis is made. I know I’m right. He is an N. What hurts is why was only I discarded. I patiently wait for others to fall so I can prove my theory. Sounds mean I know but yes without a professional diagnosis how do we know.

  13. Beth

    I faced the rejection Pastor Dave is talking about every time my husband felt threatened. Which was anytime I confronted him on a lie, an unkind or thoughtless act towards me or one of the children or I needed or asked or expected an emotional, caring response. If I verbalized out loud what I was looking for, hoping for or needed, I was face slammed with his rejection.
    He used it as a means to control me and the kids.
    Just four weeks ago today I was lying face down on the bathroom tile unable to move because I fell in such a way (face down)my neck kind of snapped. I had tripped over the bathroom scale when I was following him as he was wildly packing his bags to leave (again) because I followed up on an accusation he hurled at me earlier in the evening. The accusation came in response to me suggesting (very carefully) that he doesn’t show the kids he cares very much for them, and he corrects them harshly which is why they bristle when he gets on them about something.
    His response was ” you’re delusional”, a phrase he uses often if I ever speak up. Then he said “Everyone at church is disgusted with you”. I told him I would follow up on that allegation and made a call. When He found out I had made the call and was told that it was not true, he flew into a rage. I tried to calm him down, which looking back I know defending myself doesn’t calm him down. Accepting his blame and his tongue lashing is the only thing that calms him down.
    After I fell my older daughters came rushing in our room to make sure I was ok. I was lying on the floor, unable to move but he continued to rage and scream on at me. Rejection. In the vilest form. One of my daughters braced herself in the doorway that led into the bath to keep him from me while I was trying to get up. The other girls were telling him to stop and calm down. He ignored them. Rejection. He then grabbed the daughter who was braced in the doorway and threw her, the other older girls grabbed him to try to stop him and he shoved one to the ground and in the process slammed his elbow into another daughters face. Never stopping out of concern for any of us. He was rejecting us. He does it when ever he feels any pressure he doesn’t want to feel. It usually will start with a look. A warning not to proceed, or else… Rejection.
    Earlier that day we were a “typical” family sitting in church with him. Him appearing to be a loving caring family man. Rejection is a tool, and up until recently, an effective one, to control the family who has been desperate for his love and affirmation.

    I have finally had enough. A restraining order was sought and granted, and there is a hearing on Wednesday asking a judge to extend it.
    I just wanted others to know for some it’s not a one time “rejection” that the N. throws at you when you stop giving him what he wants, for us, and probably others, it’s a life of one minute you’re an amazing wife, daughters, and in an instant you are less than an animal who deserves the cold hearted rejection because of something you did or said that made him uncomfortable. And when the rage subsides, and his emotions are “fixed” with twisted affirmation from some source he’s back to loving you.

    And yes, we (my kids and I) were terrified and still have some apprehension about following through with the restraining order and probable divorce because of all we have read on divorcing the narcissist. But this is one thing we haven’t tried in dealing with our N.

    To be honest, rejection happens daily with a narcissist. Because he has rejected your you. And he doesn’t want to give you his him. The day you started a relationship with him was the day of your first rejection from him. Whether it looked like it or not.

    • UnForsaken

      Beth, my heart goes out to you and I will be praying for your situation. Be stong and don’t back down, for yourself and your daughters. You all sound so brave, I’m proud to even hear of someone who would stand up and do the right thing like you! Your last paragragh describes living with an N Very well. My N is covert nad I I struggle some days to even remember he sometimes rages….or thatI should be watching for the type of abuse you have to endure. I love him, but don’t like him, never will.
      Kudos to you and a Hug for you and Each of your lovely daughters!!!!!

    • Recovering

      Beth, I prayed for you this morning. The Lord will help you and your daughters. Living with a N is a slow torture of our souls.

  14. DLD

    I have “Complex PTSD” due to my N-father, N-roommates, N-fiancé, N-supervisors and N-coworkers.

    My dear Mom is DEAD due to her N-husband and N-“friends.”

    Ns can LITERALLY kill a person!

    • Recovering

      DLD, that is so true. After my divorce, people told me they really had thought if something didn’t change, I was going to die. Die from the stress of mental abuse, verbal abuse, neglect, gaslighting (an insidious form of manipulation) you name it. I had a person tell me in the grocery store that my face looked relaxed and not a “pinched” look that I used to walk around with.

  15. Great post. I particularly love the paragraph about the Duck. I would like to use that in my blog if that is ok with you – I will link it in.

    We all know what we are dealing with when we read about the same things over and over again but due to the nature of the disorder, narcissists never get a diagnosis because a) they don’t think anything is wrong with them, it is us and b) even if they did make it to a psychiatrist they would lie to them anyway and the psych wouldn’t see the real them – only those of us in relationships with them see the real behaviour.

    So, walk, quack and look like a duck – but we can’t actually confirm conclusively they are a duck without the expert by our side. Shame. FT

    • You are very welcome to repost or to clip that paragraph for your blog. When you link, we can connect with your blog and see your perspective. Sounds good to me!

      And, honestly, I find this lack of “official” diagnosis to be particularly frustrating and believe that it adds greatly to the problems people face. I understand why professionals want to protect their turf and I understand the difficulty of diagnosing someone who is so slippery, but I continually hear from people who tell of how the narcissist charms the counselor and distorts the truth. I wish more professionals understood narcissism.

      • More people of any kind need to know about this. Many people’s struggles are with family courts who do not understand emotional and verbal abuse and how these sorts of people can manipulate the system to suit their own needs all the time never caring about the children at all.

        I believe we all need to get this information out to the general public. Trouble is, everyone thinks we are only armchair diagnosing and believe the narc not us. It is such a DIFFICULT subject and task because of he very nature of the problem. It is hidden within intimate relationships and their public persona is so ‘normal’ and we end up looking like the crazy ones.

        I am writing my memoir which I hope to publish one day, and other people have written books about this. It could just be that sheer numbers of us talking about the same thing one day reach a critical mass and the rest of the world will wake up and hear us. I hope anyway.

        I will like to your post in a day or two – don’t want to overwhelm the cybersphere with too many blogs at once. Hope to see you over there. FT

    • Troubled

      That is truly what makes it so hard. Who am I to make such a proclamation about another? Why have only I seen it? Am I the only 1 that has been discarded? Charming, smooth, no real friends that I can tell and yet everyone loves him, it’s his idea or it won’t be happening, he is superior, has a put down for everyone, he idolizes those that are at the top of the food chain, discards those he feels are at the bottom and on and on. It is a puzzle.

  16. One of my counselors did say she had had female clients die, just die, not from physical wounds, but from the oppression of abusers in their lives.

    I’ve always suspected that I will die of a broken heart.

    • UnForsaken

      Repol, she was probably right, but trust me, as you de-stress it is far less likely to happen. Keep your heart on Christ, keep a sense of humor, do a kind of therapy with rythmic music, etc. It Helps heal, even if it doesn’t change anything. Give your heart elbo room for the cracks to come together , and even spiritual death is not as likely.
      I don’t blaim you for the way you feel at all. I’ve been there.

      • Recovering

        You will make it. Seeing it for what it is starts to break the cycle. Don’t let the N win. Damage has been done but a new life is ahead for you. Keep recovering

    • Renay

      Repol,
      That sentence breaks my heart. You are a strong person and will get through this. No one has the right to make you feel that way. One thing that has helped me is the fact that my work schedule is crazy and have 2 teenagers. But it wasn’t until i came to this site that I finally started healing. Pastor Dave told me last week that my monster added nothing to my life and I finally realized how right he was. I was so caught up in trying to be what I thought the N wanted me to be and constantly thinking of ways to make him happy that I forgot what I wanted along the way. Before I had made a list of the lies and the deceit. Last week I made a list of the things I found unattractive about him and there was a lot! It’s amazing when you stop believing in the fake world they create, with themselves at the center of course, what you see. He thinks he is God’s gift to women, and he’s not even as cute as he thinks he is, he just projects, “I am amazing, look at me!”
      Never give someone else the power of your happiness. You will come back stronger than ever!

      • JD

        Some say that absence makes the heart grow fonder. In our case I believe that absence makes self esteem grow. Once we have separated ourselves from these menaces we begin the journey of regaining our autonomy and self esteem. We find ourselves again. We can then heal our hearts and learn to love and trust again. We must remember we are all worthy of real love.

  17. Singing Eagle

    Oh the utter pain of this kind of rejection, feeling like you’re going to die because of the emptiness left by the one you thought loved you. You trusted them and gave your all and more from the deepest depth of your soul until you had nothing left. You eventually later become willing to accept even a morsel of return for all you’ve given. It’s like taking step after step and then suddenly after you’ve gotten familiar with putting one foot in front of the other, you realize the next step you have already taken is met by a bottomless pit of despair. It’s too late to back out and you haven’t had time to think or decide what to do. The choice was mindlessly made for you and no concern as to the life in your soul now hanging on by a thread. Was it all just a mirage? Yes, the shear pain of someone you once loved and cared about turning their back on you as if you never existed has no words to describe what now is only a labored breath of deep anguish remaining as the tip of the iceberg of what truly lies beneath the surface. Only those who have felt the piercing cold steel of this kind of rejection can understand the journey of feeling like the world is closing in on you. Only those of us who have traveled in this desert of lonely abandonment can appreciate fellow wounded warriors who have found a fragment of courage to climbed out of this deepest valley of tears. Knowing that there is another side to all this is the only hope we have. As many of us have realized, when all hope has gone, there is a hope that rises inside us and grabs hold of our being in a way that we recognize is not us but HE that is in us, giving life and strength when we have none. Though many of us have had the desire to breath our last, somehow the ONE who is sovereign demonstrates His lovingkindness and picks us up and gives us the will to live one more day until the desire to once again embrace life is returned and we live it to the fullest!
    (Thanks for allowing me to vent!)

    • Fellow Survivor

      Singing Eagle, what you just wrote was beautiful. Your words capture the essence of what we are going through. For years when I didn’t know what was being done to me, during the slow life evaporation process, I would say to myself “No one knows the depth of my despair ” Its like death by a thousand needle pricks, each one a small matter but combined your soul just bleeds to death. You just have to ask, ‘after all the things I have done for you, you treat me like this?” Why?

    • UnForsaken

      Singing Eagle, I loved your vent!

    • Troubled

      That just sums it up and poetically. Only those who have felt the piercing cold of this rejection can understand the journey of feeling like the world is closing in on you. I think the answer lie’s in the numbers. It is them not us. I don’t want it to be, I don’t like it to be, but it is. It is for me and it is for you. When I wrote my fairy tail of a life I did not write this part in. They did, they charmed us and then rejected us for no reason. They wrote us out of our own play. We all know the words and don’t want to except it so here we are reminding eachother, it is them. They are not normal. They fake normal to the world but what they do it is not normal. Write a new fairy tail and remember it’s never to late to start over. Only this time…Better. Thank you for the words Singing Eagle. Stay strong friends.

      • prodigalkatherine

        to add to your wise words about how the N is not normal. If they were normal, and what they were doing was not evil, they would not have to go to such extreme measures to destroy their victims reputations as part of the discarding process. On some level they know that if people really knew how cruel they were, they would lose admiration. So the have to preemptively protect that admiration by devaluing you.

  18. M

    Many of us here have written about how these relationships have affected our health – sometimes quite dangerously. One type of therapy I found very helpful is called EMDR. It is typically used on soldiers who suffer from PTSD and helps to heal painful memories. It helped me to stop living a life in trauma and to start rebuilding the authentic me.

    • Fellow Survivor

      M, what is EMDR? 7 years ago I was a bone marrow match for a Leukemia sufferer and went through all the test. Everything was great with my health. 7 short years later my blood pressure is through the roof my right hip has arthritis and I’m only 53. After the first N rage attack I could still run, which was a great stress reliever. But now I can’t. Sometimes I can barely walk. There are mornings when my heart races so fast I think I am going to die. Motivation to work or clean the house is almost nil. So what is EMDR?

    • Recovering

      I just read about that therapy today!

    • prodigalkatherine

      EMDR helped me too.

  19. LD

    Hi All, I just wanted to share that I started EMDR but had to do it according to the therapist’s schedule which was one week off then one week on as she thought the sessions in between should be breaks. I couldn’t wait that long or rack up a fortune in co-pays. I went online and found the site I posted earlier (www.pstec.org). I can only say that for me, it was a lifesaver and worked immediately and way better than the EMDR sessions I did have…on top of that they are free and you do them whenever the bad feelings come up. Of course, I’m not knocking EMDR and I was so happy to read of your success with it, M! I think it’s wonderful it worked for you and it sounds like you and I travelled a similar path that ultimately let us to EMDR or that type of cross-brain therapy (for lack of a better term…that’s just how I think of it.)

    Fellow survivor, you can find out quite a bit about EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing) by just googling it or go here : http://www.emdr.com/general-information/what-is-emdr/what-is-emdr.html

    I like the pstec.org clicktracks better because I found that the focus on the tapping and keeping in mind what I needed to do in relation to the three different sounds definitely blurred the bad memories way more than just the eye movements back and forth. It’s hard to explain to someone how or why it works other than to say it “scrambles” your memories and they have less power over you.

    There was a site I had found prior to pstec that has a quick home-version (so to speak) of an EMDR type of session. I will try to find it again and post it. I would encourage any survivor to try the pstec click tracks and EMDR sessions (if you can afford them) to see what works best. My best to all!

    • Fellow Survivor

      LD and M. I just want you to know that my memories from the beginning of my marriage were awesome. The first 10 plus years were great. My exes dad was off seeking his fame and fortune and left us alone. My ex begged me to not let her become like him. Then our baby came, and our lives were even better. We were broke, no credit, but loved each other and had this amazing child.

      During the early years, the dad would come into town and stay with his mom, my ex’s Granny. We would meet them at a restaurant, have dinner and go our separate ways. The mom was the primary source of N supply at the time. Then tragedy struck.. The Granny died. She was 80 plus and she knew Jesus, so no tragedy for her, just me.

      Now, when dear ol dad came into town, he stayed at my house. He would stay for a week at a time with no invitation. My ex would hold up in the back bedroom and wail “why does he have to come and stay with us and ruin my week” and cry, cry cry. I was not pleased with this either and decided to put boundaries up. ” when he comes into town, he can not stay for more than 1 night, 2 nights max.

      He did not like this new program very much so he began to assassinate my character with my then wife and best friend. Where once we enjoyed low cost trip to the coast, now he offered trips to New York and Europe, with my wife and daughter, all without me of course

      The closer we got, the ex and me, the more extravagant the trips. Three years ago we were starting to pull it all together and regain what we had. or what I thought we had and then the dad built her a million dollar lake house. He lives out of state so he seldom uses it.

      After that house was built, we were done. There was nothing I could say or do to repair the marriage. He owns her now. My wife, the woman I loved and adored has become slave to her daddy’s money.

      My best friend that was in our wedding, as I was in his, 23 years ago calls the father in law SATAN.. If this man had not run everyone else in his life out of his life, and left us alone, we would be fine.

      So, my situation is a little different. My ex had N tendencies, yes, but they were magnified when she came into contact with him. My life and wife was stolen from me by an outside source, and that makes it very difficult for me.

      And believe me, the N ex father in law is the most despicable, worthless piece of human trash I have ever had the unpleasant opportunity to come in contact with

      • LD

        Fellow Survivor, I am so sorry to read your story. I recognized it as having either read it here or another NPD recovery site. That really is tough. It does sound like she was not N but he definitely is. It is so sad she is under his spell for her own reasons. If you try the click tracks I do hope they can help you to heal your pain. If the thoughts of that lake house hurt you then that is a good one to focus on. It’s funny you mention lake houses because I have my own painful story about a lake house that the ex and I started to build. After he kicked me out of our other house, I was to have no say in anything in the lake house. He built it all himself. I was not able to even pick out the knobs that go on the bathroom cabinets lest I “have any claim on the property”. This is the type of thing he’d say even while we were supposed to be working on getting back together. This new gorgeous lake house was built right next to his previous “camp/cabin”. He now lets me take the kids to the camp next door (when one of his OTHER EX-WIVES isn’t using it, LOL) but we are not allowed in the lake house. Only he and his other two kids have permanent rooms there and are allowed to sleep there. He gave the master bedroom/bath I had designed to his spoiled favorite teenager daughter (who, by the way, told me she fears him and his “anger issues” as did all of his kids at one time or another). N’s with money adore their money and fake power it gives them. Sounds like your ex’s father was one of these. Unlike your wife, I could not be controlled by his money. This seemed to drive him crazy, too. One minute he’d accuse me of being a golddigger and the next he’d mock me for being too frugal. I just have to tell myself he is certifiable insane and doesn’t even realize that he contradicts himself within the same sentence. As others have said, we will never make sense of it all. I just know the pstec tracks have helped me so much in taking the sting out of all of those memories. You are lucky your first ten years were good memories. Maybe the clicktracks will help with the not-so-good memories that happened later with her dad (and her since she didn’t stand by your side). Sending a healing hug to you and to all!!

      • Fellow Survivor

        LD. In the beginning the ex only had N tendencies, called fleas. She would interrupt conversations, talk loud etc. She didn’t want to be like that so she asked me to stop her if she starting doing these things and was grateful when I did.

        Then she started spending summers in Colorado with her dad who was slowing doing his work on her. She must have been conditioned as a child to bend to his will to gain his approval by mirroring his behavior. After years of this I asked her to not stay so long, I don’t like spending summers alone. She told me the other option was to spend all year alone. Slowly she developed full blow NDP. As long as she got her way everything was relatively cool. But if not the rage attack. It was the weirdest thing I have ever experienced. One day she was raging at me about how she was going to divorce me and she would keep our daughter on the weekdays and I would have her on the weekends. (weekends are for partying right) The very next day she acts like nothing happened. She had talked to a friend that told her we should have sex 4 times a week and maybe that would solve our problems. That happened a lot. The raging fight over nothing and the next day its like “hi honey, what would you like for dinner? Did you have a good day at work? See what I mean. At this point she had progressed into full blown NPD. I knew nothing about NPD at the time. Remember, Ns asses people on how useful they are to them. Love is not part of the equation, and dad could provide a lot of stuff that I could not. She was the Golden Child. Her sisters didn’t get trips or large cash gifts but she did.

        Then, everything progressed to full blown Malignant Pathological Narcissism, meaning she was out to destroy me. She cleaned me out during the mediation. I had a horrible lawyer. Who knows what she has said about me. My business is suffering because all my energy has been devoted to trying to figure this marriage out. Its been 6 months since the divorce and I am still a mess. One of my prayers is “Jesus, give me focus and motivation again” I actually completed a business related task this morning that I should have done 3 months ago, that’s how bad it is. And now I am forgotten.

      • Fellow Survivor

        Ya know guys, I’ve been thinking. Maybe the first 10 years really had more problems than I want to admit. I was reading a post on another blog talking about Red Flags. And come to think of it, there were lots of Red Flags even before we were married. The raging before the wedding, I thought it was just stress. The uncontrolled Credit Card usage, after being begged and pleaded with to stop, I thought it was just a spoiled girl. Then, our first big fight, when the rage was directed at me, she called the cops when there was absolutely no possibility of physical violence. Then one day she spends all day with her mom while I stay home and do the yard work and laundry and she comes home and tells me I am a lazy bum. I’ll never forget that day. I mowed the lawn, trimmed the hedges and cleaned out all the flower beds, plus washed dried and folded all of our laundry, and I was a lazy bum?

        She looses her $7000 wedding ring and I’m calm as a cucumber. Wrecks the Mercedes, same thing. “everything will be fine baby, I’ll take care of it” and I don’t trim the hedges right and she calls me a lazy bum? That was in the first 5 to 7 years. So, maybe it was worse than I thought.

        Now, this part ties into the subject “Rejection” of this post. As you guys that have read my posts are well aware, the Ex N has been in Hawaii for the last 13 days. Me and daughter have had a great stress free week. Daughter even remarked on Thanksgiving, “Daddy, this is the first Thanksgiving that I’m not stressed out” I ask 17 year old daughter what the plan is for the week. The Momster is back in town from Hawaii now but the official switch date is Monday. She hasn’t seen her mom in almost 2 weeks so it would be perfectly understandable for her to want to stay with mom tonight, one day early. She tells me, “I guess we’ll keep it on schedule and I will stay with mom starting Monday, but I don’t wan’t to go daddy” That justs about breaks my heart.

        Now here is the problem. Momster has dumped all of the financial burden of raising our child on me so she can spend her money on vacations, a big house etc. I need to break the no contact rule and tell the ex N she needs to “man up” and take responsibility for half of the financial obligations for our daughter. But I am afraid that she will “tune off love” for daughter and then it will just break her heart, and I can’t bear to think of that. The only legally obligated financial expense that I have is health insurance, but the phone, car payments, gas (oh the gas) auto insurance etc.

        I know and value that this is a Christ Center forum for venting and sharing our stories, but pretty soon I am going to have to go to the ex and say listen b–tch. She is our daughter and you need to step up and be responsible. What’s more important, your vacations or your daughter’s necessary dental work. Or school Supplies. Or car payments and gas and insurance and phone?

      • Fellow Survivor

        I am replying to myself again. I know, but I just have to tell someone. Daughter bakes 80 dozens cookies to raze money to send to mission church in Nicaragua. Momster has been in Hawaii for last 2 weeks. Momster’s flight gets in at 6 am this morning. Daughter goes to momsters house for “cookie pick up time” where the people that ordered them pick up and pay. Daughter gets to house but no momster. Momster shows up at 3PM, and leaves to go to Yoga. Daughter is like “Mom, I haven’t seen you in almost 2 weeks, do you want to hang with me while your friends come by and pick up cookies” Momster out the door to Yoga. My daughter is learning at a way to early age what real selfishness is, especially from her own mom. Its like the lady is demon possessed or something. I am serious. The original person is completely dead and gone and I sure miss her, but this new person, I don’t even know who she is, and my poor baby girl doesn’t either.

        I think I know about N behavior, but this is really weird. I mean this lady, momster, didn’t want her baby to be in any kind of daycare so we hired a stay at home nanny. Didn’t wan’t her to go to public school so she got a job at a private school so daughter could go there. She just blows off her own daughter for her own selfish desires and wants. I really think she is reliving her childhood because her father treated her the exact same way. “Reliving her childhood trying to resolve old wounds or something like that”:

  20. LD

    Hi again, I could not find that at home EMDR type tutorial I mentioned but it was basically moving your eyes in a “Z” formation when you are experiencing anxiety or recalling traumatic experiences. I used that method when I was away from a computer screen and needing some fast relief. I did find these videos on youtube for at-home EMDR:

    This first video shows you an actual patient and therapist using EMDR (the therapist uses her hand instead of dots on a screen in this case). This is just a good video to get you to understand the process of bringing up the bad feelings first and then applying the technique (the same is done with PSTEC): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpRQvcW2kUM

    This video is simply dots going back and forth across the screen so that you have something to follow. You probably want to put the video to full-screen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlfQIRJEsYk

    A word of caution…many people say EMDR is something that should not be done at home and only done under the care of a therapist. I personally did the EMDR sessions like this (following the dots) in between sessions with my therapist until I found PSTEC. My therapist was aware I was doing them.

    One of the posters under the above-referenced video said he uses pstec as well as “Sedona Method, WHEE, BSFF”. I had not heard of these so I am currently researching these and signed up for the newsletters.

    David, I hope it is okay that I have posted these links? If not, I sincerely apologize. I so badly want to see ALL OF US healed. I am in no way a therapist so I do hope that everyone will run these methods by their own therapists. 🙂

  21. LD

    Fellow Survivor, I feel your pain. Please don’t let her keep you in pain with these memories. I encourage you again to try the free pstec clicktracks. If I could sum up what they did for me it would be to say that the brought back my focus and purpose and motivation. I know exactly what you mean. I could not clean my house or do any little project. I could not focus on anything but the pain and just wanting to die. Please try these clicktracks. I thought it was a fluke but the more I did them while recalling the mean things that were said and done, the less those things had power over me. I wish I could give you a big hug and sit you down and download these for you, but I can’t. Only YOU can decide that enough is enough. You may have been a victim before but now you can choose to no longer be a victim to these memories. And THANK GOD you are forgotten by the Ns!! Look at that as a blessing, if you can. I know it’s tough but that is the real truth. Get yourself healthy and you will attract healthy relationships in your future. It will still sting from time to time (as it did for me when the ex told me about his new supply) but you can always do the click tracks again on that new memory. I wrote in here about a week ago feeling like I had completely backslidden after he told me about her. I did those clicktracks and got support here and I feel okay again. I pray they work for you as well as they have for me. Please let me know if they work at all for you. You may need to do them a few times the first day and may not notice a difference until the next morning…at least that is how it was for me. But, I’m telling you, these worked in a way that NO medication and NO talk therapy EVER has for me. I wish you luck and hope to hear good reports from you! 😉

  22. LD

    Hi all, no joking aside …does anyone know how to start a Narcissism Awareness Campaign complete with black ribbons? I ran into an ex member of my church whose life has just been completely torn apart my two narcissists…one of which was her teen daughter who admitted to lying about her stepfather sexually assaulting her. This teen ruined lives and apparently now laughs about it and “thinks it’s funny”. Something must be done to stop this evil sickness and catch it at it’s root in children! I’m not very web-savvy other than googling, lol. Anyone have ideas on how to start something like this? I would think with all the websites out there devoted to this topic we would have a lot of people who would support it? Any help is appreciated!! We will all feel less like victims if we take some sort of action. Maybe it is not “safe” for us to take action directly at our own N’s but by making society aware of this sickness we can, hopefully, indirectly have an effect on our ex-Ns, as well, and be anonymous in doing so. Would love to hear your thoughts. David, thank you again for this great site.

  23. I have a question for the group:
    I really feel like I need a male counselor to talk to.

    I grew up with brothers, and a better relationship with my dad than with my mom, who was probably not an N, but had her own deep insecurities and did not know how to relate to me as I grew up. My brothers were honorable and kind. Not overly protective of me, but clearly loving and stable. It was all good, and they shaped what I expected men to be like–they shaped my view of how I ought to be treated in relationships, the business and educational worlds, etc.

    I had male friends in college. I still make conversation readily with men, and I would rather sit in a classroom talking theology and application, or business, or history, or literature and philosophy, than sit in a nursery talking about chafing from nursing, or couponing, or sharing recipes or fashion tips. (I am generalizing–I realize that; please don’t condemn me for it.) I have had good relationships with my pastors over the years–fatherly type relationships with them until very recently. Now I’m getting old enough that I suppose it would be more sisterly/brotherly.

    I was harmed physically by my husband. But that’s an anomaly. Most men have never harmed me. But the women–the co-dependent responses of the women, the judgmental “you weren’t a good enough wife or your husband would have been happy with you” responses, the “it’s your fault for not being domestic enough” or “for being not separate enough from men”–all those responses hurt me emotionally enough that they cast my thinking about my personhood and my objectification from my marriage deeper into question, so that my recovery from the violence seems to be thwarted. And now added to.

    I used to think of myself as a person first. I thought of others as people first. It was a comfortable and free existence, and it was even enjoyable. But there seems to be a theme in my church community, and it keeps coming up, that even though one Savior covers us all, and God himself presents as male in all three persons, and both men and women are made in his image and for his glory, we must be totally separate in every practical way except for our one-on-one marriages, and the other-gender offspring we bear.

    I’ve seen two female counselors. One was awful and she made things much worse. She had extreme views about feminine limitations, even though she was an educated professional. The other was a sweet grandmotherly type, who did help me to an extent, but I simply could not talk with her openly about all things. She just wasn’t deep.

    I think I need a male voice that can speak with authority about the dignity of all humanity, and that even finding a male counselor who would be willing to work with me would help overcome the lies I’m being whispered all the time: You are dirty because you are a woman. You threaten male/female roles in the church. You cannot mix in society. You must separate. Worth less than a man. Only valid for other female interaction. Separate, separate, separate. Be less than you can be. People don’t like smart women. Smart women are all feminists out to destroy the culture.

    I hear all those accusations all the time. Women have added to them. I want to talk to a male counselor. The staff counselor at my church is a woman (which I thought was a good sign), but she prefers not to do counseling with me individually because it might be a conflict of interest with my marriage. She will counsel with the two of us when we are ready. (My husband is seeing a male psychologist now. And apparently it is also a conflict of interest for the psychologist to see me as well, though he does take female clients.) But when I asked her for a male counselor, she seemed very hesitant (I would almost say opposed) to recommending one. Why? Why can I not have access to the resources that are going to be most helpful to me? Why this rigidity about separation, even on a professional level? It just goes to reinforce all that loss of freedom I was referring to above: you’re not worthy of the help you need; you’re dirty; you will make a male counselor impure.

    I really need help. I can’t keep living like this. My friends in big cities see men in professional therapy roles sometimes. Is it really WRONG? Our pastors are men. Our elders are men. I can’t have a male therapist to help overrule my husband’s former position and the conditioning he did to me, and drown out the hurtful condemnation of the women who did not help me but only made it worse?

    Where is Christian unity out of diversity? Help me out here, please.

    • prodigalkatherine

      I have had a similar experience with thinking a male counselor would be better. My bias against female counselors was further reinforced by a complicated relationship with a mother who had many narcissistic traits. A truth that has come to me slowly is that I was looking for specifically male validation that what was done to me was wrong was an indication that I personally devalued female opinions (including my own). I idealized men (and was therefore more vulnerable to their betrayal) while devaluing women because I had a lot of pain connected to my mom.

      Part of healing has been in understanding that I am not set free by an alternate male point of view (from the N who hurt me)- rather, I am set free by drawing closer to Jesus Christ. Whatever counselor I end up with needs to recognize and be supportive of my faith experience because it is the key to healing for me more than any gender based validation.

      Another part has come in meeting strong women who are not threatened by or competitive with me. Women can be very nurturing, but they can also be very cruel to each other. Sometimes I think that women repress a lot of anger towards the men in their lives and then take it out on each other. That’s one reason why it can be so hard to trust other women. We are too used to sharing our hearts and confidences with a woman who appears to be sympathetic only to learn that our secrets have been spilled in the form of gossip. This is a betrayal wound, and was one that I had to face before I could truly open my heart and vulnerability to another woman.

      Repol- have you been wounded by women as well?

      • Kate

        prodigalkatherine, I have been missing your perspective, but this was so worth the wait!

      • Yes.
        The women at my former church were either completely distant or overwhelming. I was never made to feel welcome at all in their community unless they were working on me as a project–trying to make me more domestic, trying to convince me that I must homeschool and sew and bake bread and such. AND because I was theologically studious, they felt I was a threat to male headship in the church–just because I like to talk about the things we were learning and see truths developed and applied.
        The church I was in does not help hurting people. If you’re hurting, then they leave you alone to lick your wounds, UNLESS they see an opportunity to jump in with some sort of condemnation. And then it’s like they gleefully express that condemnation.
        I entered into that congregation fully believing in the unity of the Body of Christ–one body made of many parts, and each one valid and contributing to the whole with gifts specifically given by God for the WHOLE as well as the individual parts. I’m the one who wanted the autistic child to be included, not just so that she was a ministry opportunity for the rest of us to lay up treasures in heaven, but because she too had gifts for the good of the whole and the other individuals. I was the one who could not avoid the awkward, misfit, seemingly bi-polar teen boy whom no one else liked and always seemed cut out, cut off, avoided, ignored. I drew a circle to bring him in. All the while, the idealist in me was believing that I was hearing God’s voice and call–to be like the Samaritan who loved someone not like himself, just because it was right. Once another middle-aged woman (late 50s) sat on the front row of the worship service crying her eyes out the entire time. Tears just rolling. When the service ended, 200 people filed out of the worship area, and she sat down front alone. How could they leave their sister there like that? No one went to her, except me. And I sat beside her and put my arm around her and asked her to please let me help carry her hurt with her. And she told me what was on her heart so I could hug and pray.
        But everyone was so cold. When I was in that place, I needed that church family to rush to me and throw arms of love around me and help me. For years they had seen me crumbling under my husband’s abuse. They’d seen him with a broken hand and never asked where I was when it hit the wall stud that fractured it (I was pinned under his other arm). They’d seen him storm out of church in a fury, leaving me and the little girls crying in the pew and never checked on me. The women told me it was my fault that he was unhappy–that I was not having enough sex (how did they even know?), that I wasn’t a good enough cook, that I didn’t light the candles at dinner often enough. They never asked; they just told.
        When the abuse was made public, one woman (an elder’s wife) flat out told me it was my fault, that I caused it, that I wasn’t respectful to him (again–how did she know?), and that I might be called to DIE in my marriage, like the martyrs around the world being persecuted for their faith. She said that no matter what he did, how covenant-breaking, I was married in God’s eyes.
        Another woman told me I didn’t deserve a husband at all, I was so filthy, and that the only way a husband loves his wife is by having sex with her.
        Another couple, mainly spear-headed by the wife, though, came to our house and told me that HER entire calling in life was to dote on her husband and serve his wants and desires, and he said that his role as husband was to monitor his wife to make sure she didn’t sin.
        It’s more like Islam than Christianity, this culture. And it is in total conflict with what I believed when I first became a believer–that woman is a glorious expression of God’s extending himself to his creatures and bringing us into the Godhead in unity; that Christ liberates the woman from symbolizing bondage and inequity and elevates her to full inclusion in society because sin is ended.
        Now I hear so much that God never meant to unite his church, but always meant for men and women to be two separate cultures, and that women are a sub-culture that must separate, men cannot be kept pure if women are in their presence, women are stumbling blocks by their very existence. And I can’t live in that culture. I can’t live in that mindset. It seems demonic and destructive to me, and yet, because of all that conditioning, I can’t shake it either. I hear the attacks against ME personally, to stop being the full person God made me to be, to withdraw and limit and squelch.

        I don’t believe it–I do believe that the God who calls us to pure relationships (read 1 Peter, the Timothys, Galatians) unites across all areas of potential sin (greed, covetousness, sexuality, racial discrimination) and shows his own presence with us by the supernatural unity he makes possible (John 17). But outside of seminary, I can’t seem to find that. All I find is this squashing fear of the “near occasion for sin” and the constant blaming of women for existing in a male-centered culture–with the women preaching pointless martyrdom even more than the men (who don’t need to, I suppose, if their women are so effective as crushing one another).

        Paul’s letters clearly depict men and women working together for the spread of the gospel and the maturity of the church. Women’s names are mixed right in. And nowhere do I recall him scolding a woman for being too involved in the life of the church and therefore not being available enough for sex and pot roast for her husband. I hate the smallness of this existence that “they” keep pushing as the only biblically righteous way to live.

  24. Fellow Survivor

    Oh Repol, I wish I could help you on this one but I am not qualified.

  25. I should add that I am not opposed to females submitting to male leadership. In fact, I support it. I support it as a God-ordained calling. I don’t understand it completely, but I do believe that it is actually a privilege to have a means of showing my trust in God himself to actively choose to respect his authority structure. I think there may also be something GOOD for men to be purposefully instructed by their God to step up and take leadership and to do so sacrificially and benevolently.
    But even in accepting submission to male authority in the church leadership, and to benevolent, sacrificial male authority in the home, I don’t see that as negating the dignity, validity, value, or community of the full personhood of women. And I need help sorting that out between theory and reality. Under the circumstances of the abuses perpetuated on me by my own husband, and the support for it by the women around me, and the silence and absence of other male leadership to counter those voices, I still do think I need the help of a biblically oriented male to speak authority into my situation.
    I am seeking counseling because I need help unraveling all of this. I know there are places where I am wrong. But that’s what counseling is for, right? To help us untangle those errors? To say to me that ONLY another woman is valid for helping me untangle these kinds of things instead seems to support the viewpoint that has contributed to all this mess in the first place for me.

  26. Penny

    Hello, Repol (yes, its me, Penny) and I have missed you all. I am not yet ready to talk about a lot my sister but I thank you all for your prayers. She survived and is improving , but the family dynamics are…..complex.
    anyway–I wanted to jump in here and say Repol, you are more right than you are wrong. In fact, I think you are entirely right and conflicted by the errant, misguided, provincial constraints of legalism. You SEE clearly what is going on, and you are in a battle to live in reality while everyone around you seems to be in a Bible fantasy camp. I so agree with Katherine that women can be cruel; I so identify with being hungry for theology & truth & current events, and bored with recipes and fashion tips–in fact you made me smile the way you wrote that!
    Growing up, I far preferred the boys over the “mean girls”; preferred baseball over dolls, playing outside in the fresh air & sunshine over playing make-believe inside with catty girls who pull your hair. Going swimming over doing my hair; building tree-houses over playing house; reading books over fashion magazines. Boys seemed straight forward, girls had a hidden agenda; boys were therefore “safe” and girls were scary. Now obviously, I am speaking in stereotypes and there are plenty of idiots in both sexes to want me to run away or become a hermit or live off the grid. But, here is my point: you already KNOW this. You know the truth. Your theology is sound. Your doctrine is aligned with scripture. Your mind is not twisted. The problem seems to be that no one (other than here on this blog) is affirming that to you. No one is exploring the depths of God and what is really means to be created in His image; No one is willing to, because in doing so they risk exposing the “real” self, not the shined-up, Sunday-school version (the one the world often sees and despises b/c they know it’s fake but they don’t have the Truth so they lump all Christians with the fake, shined-up-Sunday-school one.) In short–you have discernment and those around you do not. (Remember Spurgeon said: discernment isn’t about right & wrong; it’s about the difference between right and almost right”). So, yes–you need a counselor who gets that. Male or female isn’t the real issue, but our experiences play into that and we want someone “‘safe”. I will even go out on a limb here and say something that might get me in trouble: God can work thru people who don’t even know Him, and sometimes the best counsellor is not the “Christian” one but the highly-skilled one. The highly-skilled counsellor who respects your faith does not necessarily need to share your faith to be helpful, and even on occasion, profoundly helpful. God is not limited by that, and I have learned some very deep truths from skilled counsellors who were not Christians but were great at what they do. Think of it like this: If you had a brain tumor, would you find the very best doctor, or only the mediocre Christian one? Do you want a great plumber who can fix a faucet, or the “Christian” one who doesn’t own a wrench? Just being a Christian does not alway mean someone is the best; one look at our churches ought to tell us that–LOL! Male or female, Christian or not, you have the right to seek help in a safe place from a skilled counsellor who understands the issues and will give you permission to seek clarity & wisdom within your worldview, and give you the tools you need to live your life accordingly. I will pray that you find that.

  27. Oh, Penny–
    Penny, I can’t thank you enough for that. I want to go out for coffee with you–or to a baseball game, or a batting cage and just enjoy the presence of someone safe and like minded. All that you just said is exactly the kind of enveloping love through verbal affirmation that I have needed and have not been able to find.

    It is true that I know what is right, but somehow, all alone in this world, constantly under attack for trying to live it, being treated suspiciously and not helped when I was being crushed, I began to believe at some undefinable core level that THEY must be right and God must be wrong. And if God is wrong, and I have been deceived, I can not live in this place. There is no hope. He is the only hope and it is as if that legalism or personal preference forced on me to conform or be demonized for not, left me with no God in Israel–and therefore no hope, no foundation to stand upon in a world that is always shifting sand because of my relationship and lack of safety.

    They are so strong. I feel so fragile. Thank you for coming alongside me with just the affirmation I needed to hear.

    I am thankful your sister survived. You have been missed here. Please share anything you need/want to when you are ready.

    • UnForsaken

      Repol, I went to bed last night thinking about waht you said. I once came from a church of about 300 like yours, never realizing how awefull it was or how much I had become a part of it until I was personally in pain. I managed to get out but not withou the N, and now have a N pastor who believes that all single young woman are ” users, losers, and abusers ” . Not an improvement, yet I do have more freedom like what pew to sit in, if I need to wair pantsetc. Anyway, I have had to give the same ideas a lot of thought, and you are right on track, honey. We are the human race God made and should be For both male and female, just as much as we should be against any evil, male or female. On unity, I just heard a rotten sermon and somehow came out with some beautiful thoughts :1 Our union is with Christ, and unity in the body is only possible so far as each is listening to Him,(2 We often sin as believers but we are Not accountable to our fellow miscreants, but to our perfect, loving Father Only…we are not to judge our behavior by another’s or their oppinion (3 If any one of us is judging, then they are not unified with the Father’s Love or overflowing it to others and will not be in unity .
      It’s a circle of logaic, not pwer, love not a system .Don’t know if I clearly put down here what I ment, but the idea is that you seem to be showing more unity with you Father by desiring His direction then the people around you. YOu are doing the right thing to search for someone to councel you who is at least as healthy minded as you are . How else could they have any wisdom to share with you, or at least afirm what God has already shown you….even if they are not a believer . One of the most sensible( and God did create good sense ) people I’ve ever known was my grandfather , who was a athiest , but lived according to the laws God created.
      Penny, and everybody who jumped in here, I needed your words too. We need to frequently hear about our value and place in Christ , or I for one forget daily haw wonderful His grace tully is.
      I’m weak physically and look as feminine as any of those mean girls your talking about, but have experienced the same responses and wonder if it has more to do with a weak interior and lack of virtue that stabsout what what it wishes it had. We are all growing Strong in Him, and the results can cause jealousy for the most invisible reasons . If there is any room left in that batting cage, I’d like to be included in giving out hugs! We have a lot in common..Christ !

  28. Penny

    P.S.: If you have access to cable or satellite TV, then tune into Megyn Kelly on the “Kelly File” on Fox News, evenings. I view Megyn as a great example of brains and beauty, fearless in her interviews, a spine of steel, 2 solid feet on the ground, does her homework, tells the truth, comfortable in her own skin and with her own voice. It’s not about her opinions or her politics, but rather about her inner strength. I love watching her simply b/c she is strong, fair and unafraid. Inspiring, especially for those of us learning to find our voices.

    • Troubled

      Hey Penny, Glad to see you back. You have all given me such great strength. Oh why doesn’t it stay with you day in and day out? Had to drop in just for a boost of confidence. Office N up to the same old I don’t exist today, discard me process. I would have never dreamed in a million years that someone would just write me off one day and I would turn invisible. Same story different day. I read all your stories and see that my problems are minute compared to some but yet I stuggle. I think what is most weird is who knew that anothers acceptance of me meant so much. Today I sit here in my chair wanting to go say hi or whats up but I know I can’t. He will be polite because he has to. I want to shake him and scream “we were friends. How can you do this…to me” He knows my weekness. So I am learning to be strong and grow and change I get I just so hate that I even have to. Sigh. Back to work. Miss the days when my friend would stop and say Hi. This world of N. I wish it was something I knew nothing about.

    • UnForsaken

      Thanks for the tip!……..And and for overlooking my typos. I don’t usually “talk” so much because the reply box doesn’t let me see everything ( my old computer?). I’m suprised it made any sense at all!
      I forgot to welcome you back, Peggy. I’ve missed your wise and kind words. Continueing to pray for your sister’s health and situation .

  29. Broken and emptied

    How does one sow unconditional love in one’s marriage when you know for a fact that your N spouse is incapable of empathy and love? My pastor-counselor advises me to count small victories and give my spouse the benefit of doubt when he is “nice” to me (in front of others, but treats me like I’m invisible when we’re alone). But each time I do so I open myself up and become vulnerable to more rejection and abuse. I don’t trust my husband’s sincerity (it’s all a show to make him look good when someone else is looking) but when dear friends tell me to love unconditionally, I feel more abused than encouraged.

    • Penny

      I am so sorry about your situation, and sorrier still for the bad counsel you have been given. I would ditch the “pastor-counsellor” who clearly is uneducated about narcissism and it’s abuse. You are right to feel abused when people enable your husband’s behavior and then try to back it up with scripture or Biblical principles. Why isn’t your “pastor-counsellor” holding your husband accountable for his duplicitous behaviors? Why must you give the benefit of the doubt to an abuser? If your “pastor-counsellor” can’t answer that (and he won’t) then the abuse has just multiplied and you need a different counsellor. You might send an email to Dave and see if he knows of a skilled counsellor in your locale. Start there, and take care of yourself.

  30. Broken and emptied

    Thank so much Penny for such a reassuring response. I will email Dave.

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